New Insight into the (Epi)Genetic Roots of Homosexuality

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For an evolutionary biologist, homosexuality is something of a puzzle. It’s a common trait, found in up to 10% of the population. It appears to be run in families, suggesting that it is hereditary, at least in part. And yet it defies the very reason why traits are passed on from generation to generation. How could something that hinders childbearing be passed down so frequently from parents to children?

Researchers at the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis (NIMBioS) think they may have an answer. It’s not in written in our DNA sequence itself, they suggest, which explains why scientists have failed so far to find “gay genes,” despite intensive investigations. Instead, it’s written in how our genes are expressed: that is, in certain modifications to how and when DNA is activated. These changes can have environmental roots, so are not normally permanent enough to be passed from parent to child. But occasionally, they are.

MORE: Of God and Gays and Humility

“It’s not genetics. It’s not DNA. It’s not pieces of DNA. It’s epigenetics,” says Sergey Gavrilets, a NIMBioS researcher and an author on the paper that outlines the new theory of homosexuality, published in The Quarterly Review of Biology.  “The hypothesis we put forward is based on epigenetic marks,” he says.

To be specific, the new theory suggests that homosexuality is caused by epigenetic marks, or “epi-marks,” related to sensitivity to hormones in the womb. These are compounds that sit on DNA and regulate how active, or inactive certain genes are, and also control when during development these genes are most prolific. Gavrilets and his colleagues believe that gene expression may regulate how a fetus responds to testosterone, the all-important male sex hormone. They further argue that epi-marks may help to buffer a female fetus from high levels of testosterone by suppressing receptors that respond to testosterone, for example, (thus ensuring normal fetal development even in the presence of a lot of testosterone) or to buffer a male fetus from low levels of testosterone by upregulating receptors that bind to the hormone (ensuring normal fetal development even in the absence of high levels of testosterone). Normally, these epi-marks are erased after they are activated, but if those marks are passed down to the next generation, the same epi-marks that protected a man in utero may cause oversensitivity to testosterone among his daughters, and the epi-marks that protected a woman in utero may lead to undersensitivity to testosterone among her sons.

MORE: New Volleys in the Gay Parenting Wars

Gavrilets says that some scientists have already expressed “strong interest” in new experiments that will test the hypothesis, attempting to estimate how often such epi-marks may arise among men and women, and how often they are saved from one generation to the next. The work might also explain the extent to which epi-marks can influence sexual behavior. While experimental evidence is lacking for now, Gavrilets says he is reasonably confident that the theory is sound.

“It’s compatible with the [existing] data. Plus it’s supported by mathematical modeling,” he says.

The new theory is important because it synthesizes well-tested and well-developed evolutionary principles with cutting-edge research in molecular biology and biological computation. Epigenetics is not a new concept exactly, but the field has exploded within the past decade. Where once it seemed that genes and environment were distinct, or that nature and nurture were distinct, now it seems clear that environment itself may change the ways in which our genes function – even though the genes themselves are essentially fixed over time, barring occasional mutations, and conserved across generations.

MORE: Do Children of Same Sex Parents Really Fare Worse?

For now, the work is still controversial. Gavrilets says he and his colleagues have been criticized both by conservatives, who weren’t happy with people searching for a biological basis to homosexuality, as well as by some in the gay and lesbian community, who feel they shouldn’t require a scientific investigation to justify who they are.

“It’s been a controversial topic,” Gavrilets says. “There is a lot of misconception in the world about the topic of homosexuality.” Still, he says, “One of the roles of science is to clear up misconceptions, to explain different phenomena or different patterns.”

139 comments
BrianWebb
BrianWebb

This article is so poorly written as far as grammar goes, that I seriously question its legitimacy. Since when do journalists not care about their credibility as it is established by writing properly? This is ridiculous.

napoli66
napoli66

if you think being gay/lesbian is difficult, try being transgender! it's worse.  surgery, hormones, rejection, etc....

JamesHollon
JamesHollon

If I were gay, I think I would rather be a sinner to Christians, than a Genetic Mutant to everyone as this article suggests......

BigJeff333
BigJeff333

@JamesHollon - Varying eyes, skin color, hair, height etc. are all genetic mutations.  What's one more?  Red hair could get you burned as a witch during the Spanish Inquisition...

AnonForLance
AnonForLance like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

I'm simply amazed at how many commented (either embracing or refuting) on this research without even reading the paper.  And the same goes for the media, which mostly remains uninformed and just spins a portrayal to confirm preexisting bias. 

For example, Time states "It appears to be run in families, suggesting that it is hereditary, at least in part" and yet the actual paper summarizes the decades of research and concludes that "no convincing molecular genetic evidence has been found" as a putative cause of the phenomena of homosexuality.  

To quote the paper;

"However, despite numerous studies over the last decade searching for polymorphisms associated with homosexuality, no convincing molecular genetic evidence has been found despite the fact that pedigree and twin studies clearly show that homosexuality is familial (reviewed in Ngun et al. 2011). Homosexuality has also been hypothesized to be caused by nongenetic factors such as maternal antibodies against male-specific antigens (reviewed in Bogaert and Skorska 2011). This hypothesis may indeed explain some cases of homosexuality, but cannot account for most cases in men and none in women (Cantor et al. 2002). The poor correspondence between current models and data calls for a new conceptual framework to understand the evolution of homosexuality."

And then the paper goes on to attempt to provide such an alternative "proof", but merely in a hypothetical, mathematic sense.  Not in a scientific sense with the production of primary data.  The paper only proposes a theory that homosexuality is explained by epigenetics (i.e., not DNA), and they are not even the first.   

Still, the paper has some logical faults.  It delves into straw man debate tactics of discussing to exhaustion androgen mediated genital malformations, but leaves the reader to make the unsupported leap in logic that sexual orientation assignment is also "trait" akin to such physical abnormalities.  No where in the paper does it even dare breath any alternative theory, even while there exists increased neurobiology evidence that points to the real possibility that sexual orientation assignment in not immutable genetics, but is actually a habitualized behavior.  

Hard to blame.  They are geneticists and mathematicians ...not neurobehavioralist.  To the man with the hammer, all the world appears to be nails.  But there is another reason...we can't reject the possibility they left out discussion of the behavior alternative out of fear of reprisals from the PC goon squad.   

Of course, the goon squad might still be heard.  That is if they ever realize what they were reading.  For if one accepts this theory, one must likewise accept that there is now an open door to “treat” and the development of pharmaceutically mediated sexual orientation reassignment therapy.  After all, medicine already has multiple treatments that provide their effect by modulating epigenetics in vivo (e.g., HDAC inhibitors).

zerozerootto
zerozerootto

Try telling someone  who's gay they chose there sexuality - Thats why they chose to be different and risk prejudice and violence and imprisonment in some societies - Even some churches now accept it or say be gay but don't practice it. Its becuase of prjudice we have the problem - We are all conditioned to pick at what doesn't seem the norm even the little things like looks and dress and hair style so lets face it a lot cant stand gay 

JamesHeymansRandall
JamesHeymansRandall

You know what is really silly, is that it took experts and professional scientists to figure out what anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of genetics would understand. Begs the question, is there still a nature vs nurture debate going on in the science world, if so, why? First year biology clearly taught me that it is nature and nurture, not one or the other.

Raphaelark
Raphaelark like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

You all need to do some more research and stop being narrow minded... Religion was talking about this thousands of years before you were all born. And for all of you CHRISTIANS who just repeat what your priest are saying about homosexuality, you should really start reading the BIBLE in its original and its intended way. Homosexuality was a GIFT from god in order for humanity to UNDERSTAND itself better. They the "STRANGE FLESH", the angels or the force of WISDOM sent in order to message love and understanding were the ones in which heterosexual took and abused(SODOM AND GOMORRAH). Just take a second and ask yourself why Art through out the centuries displays angels as an Androgynous spirits. 

*GNOSIS*---->IS THE KEY TO ALL EXPLANATIONS OF HUMAN DEVELOPMENT=======> LOOK IT UP!!! RESEARCH ALL ITS SOURCES 

The early gnostics MOSES, JESUS, ABRAHAM, NOAH, DAVID, SOLOMON, ect......

The Modern Gnostics Albert Einstein, Leonardo Da Vincii, Michelangelo, George Washington   

 : They knew what the F. they were talking about & if we keep rolling in our own human pollution by HATING (as we have had for the past millennia) we are not going anywhere. WE AS HUMANITY HAVE TO START PREACHING LOVE AND ACCEPTANCE FOR ALL!!!

I am CHRISTIAN, I Am Straight, I am a Jesuit, I have studies on the BIBLE + HEBREW SCRIPTURE + THE SOCIOLOGY OF HUMAN INTERACTIONS & GNOSTICISM : METAPHYSICS  (I am unbiased: I just want this hatred and violence to stop)  

and I HAD A FRIEND and he killed himself right infront of me because he gave up on love ( yes he was homosexual and he wanted to find someone. Someone who would love him(not just have sex with), understand him, and he like all of us-- wanted to die with someone at his side...  the miscommunication and misunderstanding that history has left throughout time has polluted our natural senses.WE HAVE BECOME THE CANCER... the cells that are unable to communicate and finally if we don't start applying the medicine(KNOWLEDGE THROUGH LOVE) we will eventually die.

 RELIGION.SCIENCE.HISTORY. ===> ALL INTERTWINE (OPEN YOUR HEART & STAR LOOKING FOR ANSWERS) 

RobFrey
RobFrey

@Raphaelark I am sorry you had to witness your friends final blow with his pain.   It's not an easy life but for me it is the gift of life and the chance everyday to do the next right thing i wake up for.  God is very much a part of my life and always will be.  I am his creation how could i not be loved by my maker. I ask daily for gods will for me to be shown to me and am grateful for the blessings of doing his work.  

I have no clue why i am the way i am but i am a creature of god and am gay, boy i sure begged him to take it away when i figured it out.  Hell i didn't know what gay was till i was 14 and flipped out and god wanted no part of taking it away.  I love life and after years of prayer, begging i woke up one day and it was as if my prayers were answered and realized  and accepted this is just  part of who i am.   It really makes no difference why to me,  Now my parents on the other hand the rejection of coming out at 17 in 1986 in a Catholic family.  I didn't go to college because of it after high school they completely rejected me at first. I could not get away fast enough.  We have long since reconciled but it was not a spoken reconciliation.  Two years ago my Cousin has a daughter that came out at 20 and went to my mom for advice, my mom said don't do what we did with Rob. My cousin told me this and i was shocked and filled with gratitude and love. It didn't matter how it came i was told 27 years later it doesn't matter i am her son i already knew of course but  my mom doesn't talk about feelings.  If it's not written in a card she can't say it.    

AnonForLance
AnonForLance

@Raphaelark   I know your pain, and sense you are still hurting.  I too am a heterosexual Christian, who also has had a good friend kill himself.  He was a skilled physician.  And he was in a homosexual relationship.  He killed himself as he accepted for himself a reality of a world where he felt unaccepted and alone.  But his real fatal flaw was that he also accepted for himself that homosexuality must be an immutable trait, even though it was a trait that he did not want. 

Look, we are all biased.  While the topic is biology, you (and many others here) focus on theology.  (To be frank, I find your claims far afield of Jesuit teachings, and rather baseless given you are unable to provide a single verse from any text as support.)  My bias is biology, given years of study of androgens and neurobehavior, that sexual orientation is more likely a habitualized behavior, akin to psychological addictions like gambling.  Yet habitualized behavior can be changed.  Even if you don't agree with the habitualized behavior, and would rather accept the epigenetic cause, if one accepts the paper, one must also accept that it might be pharmacologically treatable one day, given there are already many epigenetic trageting medicines.

The need for understanding and love is universal.  Acceptance of all people, yes.  But acceptance of all behaviors, no.  And acceptance of abnormal genetics or epigentics; need not be required either.  To accept ones habitualized behavior - or epigentics - or even genetics, as immutably and that it is what defines us, and that it must be accepted by us even if we don’t want to, is, well, truly sad and confused. 

Hadrewsky
Hadrewsky

Anam and others - I suppose a decent argument can be made for stating that homosexuality is a genetic disorder.

However, it seems it is a rather benign genetic disorder and if it is benign you religious fools do not need to outlaw it... Keep your stupid faith out of other people's bedrooms. These folks are not harming anybody. I would much rather see the religious persecuted do to their beliefs causing more damage than gays have ever done.

AlpentrudelAlpi
AlpentrudelAlpi like.author.displayName 1 Like

There haven't been any big genetic studiesy about male homoseuals. I'm speaking about serious genetic analysis done by more than 2000 gays. SAuch studies DO NOT exist. So they lie clearly when they say it was investigated!

Elpid Refuerzo Cruz
Elpid Refuerzo Cruz like.author.displayName 1 Like

The human race will be wiped out....think SODOM and GOMORRAH...sodomy is sexual perversion....

RobFrey
RobFrey

@Elpid Refuerzo Cruz Oh we will be wipe out alright but only by the hatred filled folk like you.  I'd sure like to know the day God as you understand him gave you the right to judge me on my ability to commit my life and love to another man as a sin.  Commitment is between two people not any dam piece of paper or the church. 

Bearthoven
Bearthoven

@Elpid Refuerzo Cruz   The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was not caused by homosexuality.  Isaiah 3:8-9 (their tongues and evil doings), Jeremiah 23:14 (adultery and walk in lies), Ezekiel 16:46-56 (pride, gluttony, sloth, greed and uncharitable towards the poor, and haughtiness), Matt 11:23 (hard hearts and inhospitality) etc.  The greatest sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was their inhospitality to strangers, rape, bestiality, and all the above listed.  Not one time in the bible was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah listed as homosexuality. 

JamesHeymansRandall
JamesHeymansRandall

@Elpid Refuerzo Cruz the human 'species' will be wiped out by a large enough solar flare anyway, I am pretty sure we won't go extinct if 10 or even 20% of the population is gay, there is no gene exchange, so there is really no reason why those numbers would increase, of course, if there is an evolutionary advantage to having a larger gay population (think population balancing) then those numbers may increase.

amazonbaby57
amazonbaby57 like.author.displayName 1 Like

After reading all these comments, it seems when the epigenetic mark is activated for homosexuality in the womb, that the accompanying epigenetic mark for not being able to make comments without personal insults and belittling condenscendation was activated, too!  

elotrolado8
elotrolado8 like.author.displayName 1 Like

What "causes"  homosexualities, as if there is any 1 single cause, is a question to also then, if you must, ask of what "causes" heterosexuality.  The author asks "how could something that hinders childbearing be passed down so frequently from parents to children?"  Oh, please, tell that to the hundreds of thousands of same gender couples with children.  And for those queer folk without children, perhaps there is something life giving  (creation beyond literally bearing children) in NOT bearing children and being freed up to utilize their special gifts to contribute to the culture and community in other ways which is what queer people have ALWAYS done.

Recoloniser
Recoloniser

I read about a study elsewhere which found that the probability of a male to be gay increased exponentially with the number of older male siblings he has.  This effect is, conjecturally, attributed to a resistance building up in the womb of a woman carrying a male foetus.  This increase of resistance would be incremental, i.e. go up at each male child pregnancy.  The effect of the resistance would then be the switching on of a gene  the foetus has inherited from either parent that causes him to be sexually oriented towards his own gender.

The authors claim that, whilst the mechanism described above is as yet purely conjectural, the basic effect, the increase of homosexuality of younger siblings with older brothers, has been positively identified and proven to be statistically significant.

JamesHeymansRandall
JamesHeymansRandall

@Recoloniser or it could be growing up in a situation where there are few, if any, females around to interact with, it is sort of a psychological defence mechanism in a way maybe, I had a friend with two female dogs, and one would always mount the other, could be a social cohesion skit

Recoloniser
Recoloniser

@JamesHeymansRandall @Recoloniser This is difficult to distinguish, though.  It is well known that both men and women will have sex with members of their own gender when there is a dearth of those of the opposite sex.  Hence Winston Churchill's famous dictum about the traditions of the Navy being "rum, sodomy and the lash".  But that is not the same as homosexuality.  Nor is a homosexual person who has sex with someone of the opposite gender thereby suddenly heterosexual.  This is the difference between behaviour and nature.  We observe homosexual behaviour in animals, a lot.  Just walk by a field of heifers and you'll see.  But we can't ask them whether they actually *are* homosexual and since they (the heifers) don't get a lot of choice in their sex lives later on, we cannot deduce it from their consistent behaviour either.

Recoloniser
Recoloniser

@JamesHeymansRandall @Recoloniser No, that is not what I meant.  In humans we can distinguish between real homosexual orientation and incidental homosexual activity because we can communicate and therefore ask.  Also, since humans are free agents, we can see from consistent behaviour what a person's sexual orientation is.

We cannot ask animals what their sexual orientation is and with domestic animals we have limited their (sexual) freedom so that their behaviour cannot be said to be a reliable indicator of their sexual orientation.  Whether there are studies of animals in the wild, I don't know.  I seem to recall that homosexual activity between young males who have banded together after being banished from their birth pride or herd does occur regularly.  But that would seem to be temporary, whilst they don't have a harem of females of their own.  I have no idea whether lasting homosexual bonds have been observed in wild animals.  In short, we cannot know, at this moment, how sexual orientation in animals works.  Since we don't know, the claim that homosexuality is unnatural because it doesn't occur in animals cannot be sustained.

epitygxanwn
epitygxanwn like.author.displayName 1 Like

If this article still quotes the old, discredited 10% figure, then we cannot count on scientific accuracy anywhere else in the article That 10% figure comes from early researchers following extremely sloppy sampling procedures. People quote it all the time, but no one has bothered to correct the sloppy sampling methods and put it on more solid ground.

AnonForLance
AnonForLance

@epitygxanwn Yes, Time is playing loose with the stats in this article ...  and even the subject paper talks of the Australia paper with about 8% but there a many survey bias in that study that were not controlled for (urban / rural, etc.)

Marky_D_Sodd
Marky_D_Sodd

Homosexuality has been observed and documented in more than 1500 species in nature. What occurs in nature is...NATURAL!

50% of straight first marriages end in divorce. 67% of straight second marriages end in divorce 74% of straight third marriages end in divorce.

Obviously straight marriage is not natural. Among straights, divorce is the NORMAL condition.

All the "religious" and "moral" arguments against homosexuality are just smoke and mirrors, since Jesus was gay.  People who believe in a god they cannot prove exists are not natural, and need mental health care.

 Who was the naked boy in the woods with Jesus and the apostles in Mark 14:51-52, and what was he doing there?  Any educated guesses?

Perhaps the clerical abuse of boys has both a precedent in the christ cults, and a lengthier history than we've realized.  If Jesus was spending his last hours with a naked boy, maybe he was getting in one last one while he could! 

RobFrey
RobFrey

@Marky_D_Sodd Ok that last part was funny.  Are those true stats on str8 marriage? if so that is chilling.

someinternetdude
someinternetdude

Its a chemical imbalance in the brain that affects the sexual preference of an adolescent at around the age of 8 or 9. Resulting in  hard wiring of sexual preference at around prepubescents.  It happens, to humans it happens in the animal kingdom.  It serves no purpose in the animal kingdom as reproduction is impossible,  but in humans adoption is an option. Aside from a biological reproductive stand point  Homosexuality is just another human condition.   Perhaps one day in the future medical advances in genetics will give us the ability to screen whether a fetus is prone to homosexual tendencies, and thru gene therapy corrected.  That is if the parents deem it something they wish to correct in the first place.   But that is for debate a few decades from now.

RobFrey
RobFrey

@someinternetdude It just makes me uncomfortable to talk about it as a correctable defect or imbalance.  It is the human condition we all have a different life, DNA and all circumstance.  Why would we want to change what god created or nature if you don't believe in a higher power of sort. I wish we would stop trying to play god and drive up window birth orders.  I don't get the feeling you are judging but it is a subject that gives me a sick  feeling.  I realize we study lots of things about the human geno but when do we stop playing god and look at the moral issue of life is a life and isn't there value in it no matter how it comes. We are all flawed in some ways or maybe just different.  Is it defect or difference did my chemistry change when i decided i like burnt orange now and hated it 25 years ago.  It just seems to be a very slippery slope we are treading on when we can genetically change or even talk of it for the unborn.  We abort a child over the chance of downs who is to say that child will not become the blessing of life of that family needs. 

someinternetdude
someinternetdude

@RobFrey by your logic god created Cancer too but we tend not to want that on our selves. And if a doctor came to me and said sir your unborn child was a genetic disposition for cancer or whatever but we can administer gene therapy to correct it, I think id do it.

AnonForLance
AnonForLance

"Hard wiring" is an imprecise term.  A better term for orientation assignment via the neurobehavioral reinforced habitualization theory is “persistent, yet not immutable”. 

Also, if you read the subject paper, you would see genetic screening would not help, given there is no known gene or SNP material associated with the homosexual phenomena.The paper proposes, but does not prove, that it may be epigenetics, in other words of non genetic origin.Still, this is but a theory, and one with no more evidence than the habitualization theory.

JamesHeymansRandall
JamesHeymansRandall

@someinternetdude How can you even suggest it serves no purpose in the non human animal world just because reproduction is impossible, that is just ridiculous, you are assuming you know everything there is to know about animal psychology, and even the highest trained experts would dare not claim such a thing. There is no such thing as a chemical balance, that is used by psychiatric medicine to sell drugs. The only chemical imbalance that happens is when inhibitors and exciters are introduced into the brain.

WandaFry
WandaFry like.author.displayName 1 Like

Endocrine disruptors? Any one tried to see if the exposure to these chemicals has any effect on this process?

JamesHeymansRandall
JamesHeymansRandall

@WandaFry indeed, I suspect that environmental pollutants play a large role in this, remember the synthetic estrogen (BPA) that were in canned foods? We still haven't seen the consequences of that really, since they have only been banned in canada for 3 years or less. I watched a documentary about PVC plastics as well, its prevalence in the medical world, and how it is damaging male reproductive system development. Apparently, males in north america have very low sperm counts as a result of all this.

WandaFry
WandaFry like.author.displayName 1 Like

@JamesHeymansRandall@WandaFry 

 @JamesHeymansRandall@WandaFry 

Dear Mr. James,

 Have you seen this research?

 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/38175434/GLNatResCenter_HormoneCopycats_Apr1994.pdf


How about this denied petition?

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/38175434/BloombergBNA_FdaDeniesCitizenPetitionSeekingBanOfBisphenol_Apr2012.pdf


Do you know that the original research into this type of chemictry was all about behavior control in prision populations?

Seems to make the prison planet 'conspiracy' theorists a little less unbalanced than the major media portrayes them.

Just watch out or you will become a 'unemployable' blacklisted individual.

The more you investigate this type of information the more likely you are to be perceived as antisocial and dangerous, and the 'experts' will denounce it all anyway.

 Good luck with your independent thinking skills, wish there were more out there trying.

Oh, and this may also be of interest.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/38175434/september%2030%20shareholder%20rights.docx


After all he who owns the gold makes the rules.

The deck has been stacked so well the every day average person has no chance at all.

Johnny Peteru
Johnny Peteru

@Anam , I talk big? Why thank you , it's because you actually think small . Keep your false pity & put it back in your tiny pocket of ancient misplaced spiritual values . If everybody chose to be homosexual the human race would die out ? Duhhh ...arent you a clever fellow for stating the obvious , but most of us arent homosexuals that's why we have diversity you ding bat. Go gather ALL the world religions together & try provide LEGITIMATE PROOF that your GOD is REAL . Im not a gambling man , but I bet you could'nt . Why? Because ALL religions rquire faith , blind , obedient , unchallenging faith. Lame . Your in that same steaming pile of ignorant dark age thinkers , barking @ the rest of humanity , God wants this , God needs this , God says this , God did this , on & on & on , blah blah blah . There is more & more EVIDENCE coming in ( including footage little boy ) that we are NOT the only living physical entities alive in this universe & once that PROOF does come to light Anam ? Your belief systems , all religions , then become debunked . Boo hoo hoo ,sob sob, all that raving for nothing . Homosexuals ,gays,lesbians dont need your lobotomy redemption in a lab , mosque ,church whateverrrrrrrr. Its you that needs a change , acceptance , understanding ,compassion , love & peace . But you wont , cos your fear will continue to hold you down , fear of your invisible Gods wrath *oooo spooky * . pfffft haha

JamesHeymansRandall
JamesHeymansRandall

@Johnny Peteru what is fun is giving christians an animist's point of view on it all :)

Faithendures
Faithendures

Talk Big! Listen!

Unfortunately, when it is finally proven that we are not the only physical entities in this universe and once that proof does come to light, you'll be spinning away and roasting thousands of years in the doom of your passion. A proof of God? Hows about a proof of death or hell? 

Hadrewsky
Hadrewsky

@Faithendures 

Your God sure made the universe a gigantic waste of space then eh? It is not possible to rule out ET life in the Universe.

Secondly the belief in Hell is pathetic - Why would a "loving God" support eternal torture? If nations on Earth tortured murderers for 20 years before their execution the world would be horrified .. So we reflect morality and us imperfect being are more moral than God? Save your BS beliefs for the big empty when you die.

Kicker
Kicker like.author.displayName 1 Like

For all those who demand acceptance of homosexuality because it is "natural" and "has been around for thousands of years", so what.  Cancer has been around for thousands of years as well, is "natural".  The same could be said for a large number of other conditions that cause "problems" for those so afflicted.  

If the research proves to be true, and that is still out for debate, the question then becomes can we, or should we, "correct" the epigenetic markers that are effected.  That becomes a value judgement... Is homosexuality a desirable, or at least benign, condition, or is it an "illness" that can and should be corrected.  Just because some people accept, and even embrace, their condition, doesn't make it desirable if it can be remedied.

JamesHeymansRandall
JamesHeymansRandall

@Kicker right and just because people have a bias against homosexuality because it makes them feel insecure about themselves, doesn't mean it doesn't have it's advantages. If you understand from a traditional earth approach, homosexuality is considered a gift, as, that individual is connected to both the masculine and feminine sides of life. I find gay people add a lot of fun and laughter in life, as well as many of them being brilliantly creative people. I have pondered what could be the possible evolutionary advantages of homosexuality, and I think their place is to excel in the arts and intellectual development, while us breeders pump out kids :)

Marky_D_Sodd
Marky_D_Sodd like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

@Kicker  

Yes, cancer, hurricanes, spontanenous abortions, birth defects, lightning strikes -- they all and many more are "natural" occurrences.  Nobody said that nature is always fun and games.  But what is natural is natural.  It is NOT unnatural nor abnormal.  Neither is homosexuality.  Just because your paranoia makes YOU personally fearful of homosexuality does not mean that is a source of fear -- or hatred -- among rational people.  The problem is not with homosexuality.  The problem is with you and your personal demons.

tauruskat
tauruskat

@Marky_D_Sodd @Kicker  

Reading all of your responses it is nice to see someone who thinks clearly and has common sense! Thanks.

bojimbo26
bojimbo26

Scientists say this , that and the other . In truth , gays and lesbians are born as such and no power on earth can do anything else .

epitygxanwn
epitygxanwn

@bojimbo26 Since you deny the reliability of science in answering the question, I have to ask -- you know this HOW?

Faithendures
Faithendures

Science does not make a judgment on truths. It seeks to explain what is evidently reality and does so after eroneous missteps. Science or scientist is fallible! It's unfortunate that there are those who while critical about faith or believe in God still blindly follow science and scientist. Some do so as a pretense to intelligence; and that's all there is pretense to intelligence!

AnonForLance
AnonForLance

@JamesHeymansRandall  Don't agree much with you... accept your healthy skeptism of scientific literature.  

One study on the subject found from 2000 to 2010 that the total number of papers retracted per year has increased sharply over the decade (r=0.96; p<0.001), as have retractions specifically for fraud (r=0.89; p<0.001).  Journals often fail to alert the naïve reader; 31.8% of retracted papers were not noted as retracted in any way.  http://jme.bmj.com/content/37/4/249.short

epitygxanwn
epitygxanwn

@JamesHeymansRandall @Hadrewsky @Faithendures And by the prejudices of the researchers, reviewers, grant writers and publishers. Worse yet, that is only a partial list. For the full list of influences that distract researchers into 'proving' what is completely false, see "The Mismeasure of Man" by Stephen Jay Gould.

Hadrewsky
Hadrewsky

@Faithendures 

Science is more reliable than your silly outdated Bible - claims of its inability to be wrong ignore the contradictions and piles of silly crap we have pulled out of it over the years... Much rather stick with science than being somebody whom has a bible rammed so far up their asses it wont allow them to think critically anymore.